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	<title>Comments on: No Study Committee for Old Fourth Ward</title>
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	<link>http://annarborchronicle.com/2008/10/27/no-study-committee-for-old-fourth-ward/</link>
	<description>it&#039;s like being there</description>
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		<title>By: susan wineberg</title>
		<link>http://annarborchronicle.com/2008/10/27/no-study-committee-for-old-fourth-ward/comment-page-1/#comment-740</link>
		<dc:creator>susan wineberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Oct 2008 19:18:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=6582#comment-740</guid>
		<description>I know it&#039;s very annoying that they are treated as two districts when they are contiguous. But these are facts of law. They were created with separate ordinances at two different times.  The four houses at the corners of Ann and Division are also in a separate district, the Division Street Historic District, which was the very first district created ca. 1975. But I think these were included in the Old Fourth Ward map. The Gandy Dancer is also in the Division Street District but it too is really part of the Old Fourth Ward. It would be helpful if the GIS system could somehow process that they are one district but that&#039;s beyond my understanding of any of this stuff. I just like old buildings!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know it&#8217;s very annoying that they are treated as two districts when they are contiguous. But these are facts of law. They were created with separate ordinances at two different times.  The four houses at the corners of Ann and Division are also in a separate district, the Division Street Historic District, which was the very first district created ca. 1975. But I think these were included in the Old Fourth Ward map. The Gandy Dancer is also in the Division Street District but it too is really part of the Old Fourth Ward. It would be helpful if the GIS system could somehow process that they are one district but that&#8217;s beyond my understanding of any of this stuff. I just like old buildings!</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Askins</title>
		<link>http://annarborchronicle.com/2008/10/27/no-study-committee-for-old-fourth-ward/comment-page-1/#comment-739</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Askins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Oct 2008 19:08:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=6582#comment-739</guid>
		<description>Susan Winberg wrote: &quot;So you really should color in the two blocks of Ann Street on the map and then you can see that these buildings on E. Huron really do relate to the district as a whole.&quot;

The image I included came from a map generated with the city&#039;s GIS system, printed in April of this year: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.a2gov.org/government/communityservices/planninganddevelopment/historicpreservation/Documents/Maps/OldFourthWard.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Old Fourth Ward Historic District&lt;/a&gt;

The set of  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.a2gov.org/government/communityservices/planninganddevelopment/historicpreservation/Documents/Forms/AllItems.aspx?RootFolder=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2ea2gov%2eorg%2fgovernment%2fcommunityservices%2fplanninganddevelopment%2fhistoricpreservation%2fDocuments%2fMaps&amp;FolderCTID=0x01200084CDB1945DC9D74EA6FB4DD513559BAC&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;historic district maps&lt;/a&gt; generated around the same time includes a separate one for Ann Street.  

If &quot;Ann Street&quot; and &quot;Old Fourth Ward&quot; are in fact one historic district, it would be helpful if the city&#039;s historic preservation documentation didn&#039;t treat them as separate -- even if they might have been separate districts at one time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Susan Winberg wrote: &#8220;So you really should color in the two blocks of Ann Street on the map and then you can see that these buildings on E. Huron really do relate to the district as a whole.&#8221;</p>
<p>The image I included came from a map generated with the city&#8217;s GIS system, printed in April of this year: <a href="http://www.a2gov.org/government/communityservices/planninganddevelopment/historicpreservation/Documents/Maps/OldFourthWard.pdf" rel="nofollow">Old Fourth Ward Historic District</a></p>
<p>The set of  <a href="http://www.a2gov.org/government/communityservices/planninganddevelopment/historicpreservation/Documents/Forms/AllItems.aspx?RootFolder=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2ea2gov%2eorg%2fgovernment%2fcommunityservices%2fplanninganddevelopment%2fhistoricpreservation%2fDocuments%2fMaps&#038;FolderCTID=0x01200084CDB1945DC9D74EA6FB4DD513559BAC" rel="nofollow">historic district maps</a> generated around the same time includes a separate one for Ann Street.  </p>
<p>If &#8220;Ann Street&#8221; and &#8220;Old Fourth Ward&#8221; are in fact one historic district, it would be helpful if the city&#8217;s historic preservation documentation didn&#8217;t treat them as separate &#8212; even if they might have been separate districts at one time.</p>
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		<title>By: susan wineberg</title>
		<link>http://annarborchronicle.com/2008/10/27/no-study-committee-for-old-fourth-ward/comment-page-1/#comment-738</link>
		<dc:creator>susan wineberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Oct 2008 18:32:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=6582#comment-738</guid>
		<description>This is a great discussion. However, it is incorrect to say that the building is three blocks away from the historic district because of the way the Old Fourth Ward district was set up.  The committee, of which I was a member, first designated the Ann Street Block as a historic district. A few years later the rest of the area became the Old Fourth Ward. So you really should color in the two blocks of Ann Street on the map and then you can see that these buildings on E. Huron really do relate to the district as a whole.  If the district were being created today, the north side of Huron would have been included, and would have been labeled as &#039;non contributing.&#039; It was left out of the district for just this reason. The rules have changed since 1983 when the OFW was created by ordinance.

If the study committee had been appointed, it could also have proposed the addition of the First Methodist Church to the district. At the time the ordinance was written, the church was not 50 years old since it was constructed in 1940.  Mr. Berggren neglects to point out that all of this side of Huron is historic--even the Firestone Building!  This too might be considered for an addition to the district--as well as the Ann Arbor News building which is an fabulous Albert Kahn building from 1936 (which has no historic protection).  There are also immense oak trees at the eastern end of the block which give it a sense of history like nothing else can.

The Old Fourth Ward got its name through a contest. It was suggested by Milo  Ryan, who wrote a wonderful book about growing up on Kingsley St.  This neighborhood had been known as the Fourth Ward for many years. Thus the name seemed to fit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a great discussion. However, it is incorrect to say that the building is three blocks away from the historic district because of the way the Old Fourth Ward district was set up.  The committee, of which I was a member, first designated the Ann Street Block as a historic district. A few years later the rest of the area became the Old Fourth Ward. So you really should color in the two blocks of Ann Street on the map and then you can see that these buildings on E. Huron really do relate to the district as a whole.  If the district were being created today, the north side of Huron would have been included, and would have been labeled as &#8216;non contributing.&#8217; It was left out of the district for just this reason. The rules have changed since 1983 when the OFW was created by ordinance.</p>
<p>If the study committee had been appointed, it could also have proposed the addition of the First Methodist Church to the district. At the time the ordinance was written, the church was not 50 years old since it was constructed in 1940.  Mr. Berggren neglects to point out that all of this side of Huron is historic&#8211;even the Firestone Building!  This too might be considered for an addition to the district&#8211;as well as the Ann Arbor News building which is an fabulous Albert Kahn building from 1936 (which has no historic protection).  There are also immense oak trees at the eastern end of the block which give it a sense of history like nothing else can.</p>
<p>The Old Fourth Ward got its name through a contest. It was suggested by Milo  Ryan, who wrote a wonderful book about growing up on Kingsley St.  This neighborhood had been known as the Fourth Ward for many years. Thus the name seemed to fit.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Askins</title>
		<link>http://annarborchronicle.com/2008/10/27/no-study-committee-for-old-fourth-ward/comment-page-1/#comment-702</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Askins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:01:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=6582#comment-702</guid>
		<description>&quot;Did you have something specific in mind in terms of a possible addition to the district or were you just pointing out the full range of possibilities?&quot;

The second of those.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Did you have something specific in mind in terms of a possible addition to the district or were you just pointing out the full range of possibilities?&#8221;</p>
<p>The second of those.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Bean</title>
		<link>http://annarborchronicle.com/2008/10/27/no-study-committee-for-old-fourth-ward/comment-page-1/#comment-701</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 17:45:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=6582#comment-701</guid>
		<description>Did you have something specific in mind in terms of a possible addition to the district or were you just pointing out the full range of possibilities?

I agree about the &quot;district&quot;. A big part of the problem is just the name. The property owners made the (specious) argument that their property isn&#039;t even in the Old Fourth Ward. If &quot;District&quot; is left off the end of that name, it&#039;s confusing. Why a historic district was named after a defunct political boundary is something I wonder about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did you have something specific in mind in terms of a possible addition to the district or were you just pointing out the full range of possibilities?</p>
<p>I agree about the &#8220;district&#8221;. A big part of the problem is just the name. The property owners made the (specious) argument that their property isn&#8217;t even in the Old Fourth Ward. If &#8220;District&#8221; is left off the end of that name, it&#8217;s confusing. Why a historic district was named after a defunct political boundary is something I wonder about.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Askins</title>
		<link>http://annarborchronicle.com/2008/10/27/no-study-committee-for-old-fourth-ward/comment-page-1/#comment-698</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Askins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 17:08:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=6582#comment-698</guid>
		<description>Steve,

I think you&#039;re right that (2) deals only with what must be shown if elimination of a district is on the table. And it&#039;s modification that was meant to be on the table, not elimination.  

The study committee considering modification of the district would simply &quot;comply with the procedures set forth in section 3,&quot; which are the procedures for establishing a historic district.  

Seems to me that even though the impetus for establishing a study committee would be a desire on the part of the property owners to exclude their property from the district, the outcome of the study committee&#039;s activity could be to recommend not just retention of that parcel, but inclusion of additional parcels as well.

I would think, though, that there&#039;s some &quot;probable cause&quot; criterion that most councilmembers apply to this sort of thing: do we have some reason to think that the property -- if analyzed again in the same way we would, if we were just now establishing the OFW historic district -- would not be included in the district?  

As an aside, the  street trees along Huron aren&#039;t helping the cause for this house, because they basically screen it from view along the street. As a layperson navigating Huron Street, it&#039;s hard for me to perceive those three OFW properties on the south side of Huron Street as part of a &quot;district.&quot;  So it might be worth it for the DDA to explore a way to make the streetside landscaping help those three properties look more like part of a &quot;district&quot;.  Seems to me there was a DDA project for that stretch of Huron put forward within the last three years or so, but I haven&#039;t had time to follow up to confirm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;re right that (2) deals only with what must be shown if elimination of a district is on the table. And it&#8217;s modification that was meant to be on the table, not elimination.  </p>
<p>The study committee considering modification of the district would simply &#8220;comply with the procedures set forth in section 3,&#8221; which are the procedures for establishing a historic district.  </p>
<p>Seems to me that even though the impetus for establishing a study committee would be a desire on the part of the property owners to exclude their property from the district, the outcome of the study committee&#8217;s activity could be to recommend not just retention of that parcel, but inclusion of additional parcels as well.</p>
<p>I would think, though, that there&#8217;s some &#8220;probable cause&#8221; criterion that most councilmembers apply to this sort of thing: do we have some reason to think that the property &#8212; if analyzed again in the same way we would, if we were just now establishing the OFW historic district &#8212; would not be included in the district?  </p>
<p>As an aside, the  street trees along Huron aren&#8217;t helping the cause for this house, because they basically screen it from view along the street. As a layperson navigating Huron Street, it&#8217;s hard for me to perceive those three OFW properties on the south side of Huron Street as part of a &#8220;district.&#8221;  So it might be worth it for the DDA to explore a way to make the streetside landscaping help those three properties look more like part of a &#8220;district&#8221;.  Seems to me there was a DDA project for that stretch of Huron put forward within the last three years or so, but I haven&#8217;t had time to follow up to confirm.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Bean</title>
		<link>http://annarborchronicle.com/2008/10/27/no-study-committee-for-old-fourth-ward/comment-page-1/#comment-697</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:37:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=6582#comment-697</guid>
		<description>It seems that the property owners misinterpreted the statute (and no one else caught it.) Since &quot;considering elimination of a historic district&quot; wasn&#039;t on the table, the rest of that section doesn&#039;t apply.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems that the property owners misinterpreted the statute (and no one else caught it.) Since &#8220;considering elimination of a historic district&#8221; wasn&#8217;t on the table, the rest of that section doesn&#8217;t apply.</p>
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		<title>By: Stew Nelson</title>
		<link>http://annarborchronicle.com/2008/10/27/no-study-committee-for-old-fourth-ward/comment-page-1/#comment-695</link>
		<dc:creator>Stew Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 14:22:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=6582#comment-695</guid>
		<description>This is exactly the type of objective, non-biased reporting that we need in Ann Arbor. Great job Dave!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is exactly the type of objective, non-biased reporting that we need in Ann Arbor. Great job Dave!</p>
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