Comments on: Vigil for Peace in Gaza Fills Street Corner http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/01/10/vigil-for-peace-in-gaza-fills-street-corner/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=vigil-for-peace-in-gaza-fills-street-corner it's like being there Tue, 16 Sep 2014 04:56:38 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.2 By: Fred Zimmerman http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/01/10/vigil-for-peace-in-gaza-fills-street-corner/comment-page-1/#comment-7220 Fred Zimmerman Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:20:42 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=11571#comment-7220 This is partly in response to posts 3 and 10. There are still some important differences between the Holocaust of European Jews and the situation in Gaza.

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W/r/t 37, it’s both absurd and uncivil to brand Joan Lowenstein as an apologist for war crimes when there has been no adjudication. If you believe in the idea of war crimes, you must also believe in the concept of adjudication, i.e. it’s not a crime until it has been adjudicated. At worst, she’s arguing the case for the defense, which is a fundamental element of fair jurisprudence.

As for the question of war crimes, I would agree that, if there were a supranational government, there might be a plausible case against Israel (as there undoubtedly would be a plausible case against Hamas, Syria, and Iran, the United States, North Vietnam, Argentina, and the UK, to name only a few modern offenders). Until there is a world government, the concept of war crimes is merely emotive finger pointing.

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By: Michelle Kinnucan http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/01/10/vigil-for-peace-in-gaza-fills-street-corner/comment-page-1/#comment-6735 Michelle Kinnucan Sun, 18 Jan 2009 04:10:02 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=11571#comment-6735 Joan Lowenstein, she’s once, twice, two times an apologist for war crimes. She justifies Israel’s war crimes in Gaza by reference to British and American war crimes in WWII. Both Telford Taylor in *Nuremberg and Vietnam* and Robert S. McNamara in *The Fog of War* have indicated that the main reasons why Axis leaders were not prosecuted for indiscriminate bombings of civilian targets in WWII is because 1) Allied leaders were equally culpable for similar or worse conduct and 2) The Allies wanted to be able to engage such bombing in the future.

As one commentator noted in the NYRB in a 1993 discussion of a review of Taylor’s memoir, *The Anatomy of the Nuremberg Trials*:

“The terror bombings of civilian targets such as Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo, and Hiroshima arguably all constituted ‘devastation not justified by military necessity.’ Not only did they violate the customary maxim against targeting noncombatants, these bombings also failed to achieve their advertised utilitarian objectives—German morale did not crumble immediately after Hamburg and the Japanese did not surrender on account of Hiroshima. The devastation was indeed violative of ius in bello, that is, the principles of just combat.”

Likewise, Israel’s attack on Gaza is criminal and it will fail to break the morale of Palestinians. Further, even Lowenstein inadvertantly admits that Israel’s attacks are terrorist attacks not aimed at a military objective but rather to use “massive destruction” to “convince” Hamas and/or “the residents of Gaza”–to teach them some lesson. It’s a “show,” as Lowenstein admits, a bloody, criminal “show” but a show nonetheless. Let us all work to bring the criminals that Lowenstein defends to the bar of justice and to hasten the impending demise of Apartheid Israel.

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By: Steve Bean http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/01/10/vigil-for-peace-in-gaza-fills-street-corner/comment-page-1/#comment-6734 Steve Bean Sun, 18 Jan 2009 03:44:19 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=11571#comment-6734 “Unfortunately, it seems impossible to convince either Hamas or the residents of Gaza that this is true without massive destruction”

Now there’s a serious demonstration of lack of imagination. ‘Hmm, how do we convince them that their attacks are futile?… I know! Let’s attack them! Brilliant!’

So it’s not self defense, it’s ‘sending a message’? And that’s not terrorism?

Anger and sadness are rooted in fear. Fear arises from confusion. There’s a whole lot of confusion going on.

How do we overcome confusion? Practice inquiry. Examine reality. Do The Work that Byron Katie developed.

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By: Abeer Hamzah http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/01/10/vigil-for-peace-in-gaza-fills-street-corner/comment-page-1/#comment-6732 Abeer Hamzah Sun, 18 Jan 2009 03:29:47 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=11571#comment-6732 For a City Council member and judicial candidate to justify Israel
killing up to 600,000 Palestinians, and then to somehow equate
Palestinians with Nazi Germany, is… monstrous.

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By: Joan Lowenstein http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/01/10/vigil-for-peace-in-gaza-fills-street-corner/comment-page-1/#comment-6702 Joan Lowenstein Sat, 17 Jan 2009 23:06:07 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=11571#comment-6702 During WWII, the Nazis bombed England and the total British civilian casualties were around 50,000. German civilian casualties in the subsequent Allied bombing raids are estimated at around 600,000, with one night’s bombing of Hamburg equaling the total British civilian deaths during the 8-month Blitz. See link. Proportional? When a country’s population is threatened by terrorist attacks, that country’s government must take steps to end the terror. Israel’s show of force is meant to show Gaza that attempts to destroy Israel through terrorist attacks are futile. Unfortunately, it seems impossible to convince either Hamas or the residents of Gaza that this is true without massive destruction. It is both sad and defensible.

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By: Steve Bean http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/01/10/vigil-for-peace-in-gaza-fills-street-corner/comment-page-1/#comment-6471 Steve Bean Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:15:47 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=11571#comment-6471 There’s no agreement, Peter. You’re in denial–to the point of trying to speak for me (put words in my mouth.)

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By: peter honeyman http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/01/10/vigil-for-peace-in-gaza-fills-street-corner/comment-page-1/#comment-6395 peter honeyman Fri, 16 Jan 2009 03:44:55 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=11571#comment-6395 steve, as you note, hamas, which governs gaza, does not provide its citizens with rudimentary safeguards. i agree that is indefensible to put them in the line of fire.

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By: Steve Bean http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/01/10/vigil-for-peace-in-gaza-fills-street-corner/comment-page-1/#comment-6389 Steve Bean Fri, 16 Jan 2009 02:21:33 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=11571#comment-6389 By the “logic” that believes that Hamas is responsible for the deaths and injuries in Gaza, the deaths and injuries in Israel would be the responsibility of the Israeli government. Doesn’t hold up, does it? So maybe the discussion can be elevated a bit? Thanks to Jeff and Fred for your efforts along those lines.

“The only reason more Israelis have not been killed by missiles is because the Israeli government mandates safe rooms in homes and bomb shelters in all public buildings. When a siren sounds, children, old people, handicapped people — everyone — have 15 seconds to take cover. Contrast this to those who occupy Gaza — Hamas. They have booby-trapped homes, stockpiled weapons in mosques, and located their military command center under a wing of Shifa Hospital, Gaza’s largest hospital.”

The more direct contrast would be to recognize that the people in Gaza don’t have those safeguards in place, in which case the bombing of their neighborhoods is an even less defensible act. Note that I wrote “even less defensible”–I don’t believe that the missile launches from the other side are defensible either. I wonder how it feels to rationalize mass killing within one’s mind. Must be painful.

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By: Anonymous http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/01/10/vigil-for-peace-in-gaza-fills-street-corner/comment-page-1/#comment-6363 Anonymous Thu, 15 Jan 2009 21:46:05 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=11571#comment-6363 Which side are you on? “All sides”?

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By: peter honeyman http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/01/10/vigil-for-peace-in-gaza-fills-street-corner/comment-page-1/#comment-6353 peter honeyman Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:23:52 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=11571#comment-6353 people on all sides of the issue mourn the innocent lives lost in the conflagration, and i join them.

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