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	<title>Comments on: DDA Hires Christman, Bonds Delivered</title>
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	<link>http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/08/19/dda-hires-christman-bonds-delivered/</link>
	<description>it&#039;s like being there</description>
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		<title>By: Fred Posner</title>
		<link>http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/08/19/dda-hires-christman-bonds-delivered/comment-page-1/#comment-30118</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred Posner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 21:03:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=26427#comment-30118</guid>
		<description>Sabra,

Thanks for asking for me... definitely was set off and the phone &quot;conversation&quot; I had with several employees of the PD that day would definitely reflect that. I completely agree that when people are responsible, life is easier. Of course, if people were responsible and trustworthy, we would be able to reduce the police budget significantly.

When drivers refuse to exchange information, the police should respond period. If they don&#039;t they are, at the very least, causing the &quot;victim&quot; driver to be further victimized by their insurance company later on. I felt it was inappropriate and have studied / worked with public safety policy for more than 15 years. I let them know of my feelings very directly at the time and wish the Deputy Chief ensures that their dispatchers know this and act appropriately in the future.

Thank you again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sabra,</p>
<p>Thanks for asking for me&#8230; definitely was set off and the phone &#8220;conversation&#8221; I had with several employees of the PD that day would definitely reflect that. I completely agree that when people are responsible, life is easier. Of course, if people were responsible and trustworthy, we would be able to reduce the police budget significantly.</p>
<p>When drivers refuse to exchange information, the police should respond period. If they don&#8217;t they are, at the very least, causing the &#8220;victim&#8221; driver to be further victimized by their insurance company later on. I felt it was inappropriate and have studied / worked with public safety policy for more than 15 years. I let them know of my feelings very directly at the time and wish the Deputy Chief ensures that their dispatchers know this and act appropriately in the future.</p>
<p>Thank you again.</p>
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		<title>By: Sabra Briere</title>
		<link>http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/08/19/dda-hires-christman-bonds-delivered/comment-page-1/#comment-30116</link>
		<dc:creator>Sabra Briere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 20:17:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=26427#comment-30116</guid>
		<description>(Typos are all my own -- too many interruptions!  Bar far!  humpf!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Typos are all my own &#8212; too many interruptions!  Bar far!  humpf!)</p>
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		<title>By: Sabra Briere</title>
		<link>http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/08/19/dda-hires-christman-bonds-delivered/comment-page-1/#comment-30115</link>
		<dc:creator>Sabra Briere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 20:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=26427#comment-30115</guid>
		<description>Re: comment #1 (and my, how fast time flies when we&#039;re all having fun!  It&#039;s been a week!)
Fred Posner reported his wife&#039;s accident.  I don&#039;t know Mr. Posner, but did recognize that being told the City-owned parking structure was &#039;private property&#039; would have set anyone off.

I contacted the Chief of Police, and spent a little time working with Deputy Chief of Police John Seto trying to follow up on this situation.  Of course, it wouldn&#039;t be appropriate for me to discuss any individual accident.  I can comfortably say the following:

For police reporting purposes, any place that *isn&#039;t* a street or public hiway is considered private property, no matter who owns it.  
Unless an accident causes personal injury (or, I suspect, a vehicle is undriveable and is causing a hazard) the police welcome both / all people involved to come to the police station to report the accident.  This is bar far the fastest way to get service.  Personal injury or major accident undoubtedly get quick attention; otherwise, people can find themselves waiting for a long time while the police respond to more urgent matters.  This works best if the parties involved come to the police station together, right away.
In the event one of the parties in an accident is uncooperative, the Police Department should send an officer to the scene.  During the first two weeks of August (through the 19th) the police responded to 3 accidents at the Maynard Street parking structure; I have no idea what the details might be in any of them.
I&#039;m sorry for my delay in getting this information out into the public.  I heard back from Deputy Chief Seto on Monday, August 24th, and should have entered this response immediately.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: comment #1 (and my, how fast time flies when we&#8217;re all having fun!  It&#8217;s been a week!)<br />
Fred Posner reported his wife&#8217;s accident.  I don&#8217;t know Mr. Posner, but did recognize that being told the City-owned parking structure was &#8216;private property&#8217; would have set anyone off.</p>
<p>I contacted the Chief of Police, and spent a little time working with Deputy Chief of Police John Seto trying to follow up on this situation.  Of course, it wouldn&#8217;t be appropriate for me to discuss any individual accident.  I can comfortably say the following:</p>
<p>For police reporting purposes, any place that *isn&#8217;t* a street or public hiway is considered private property, no matter who owns it.<br />
Unless an accident causes personal injury (or, I suspect, a vehicle is undriveable and is causing a hazard) the police welcome both / all people involved to come to the police station to report the accident.  This is bar far the fastest way to get service.  Personal injury or major accident undoubtedly get quick attention; otherwise, people can find themselves waiting for a long time while the police respond to more urgent matters.  This works best if the parties involved come to the police station together, right away.<br />
In the event one of the parties in an accident is uncooperative, the Police Department should send an officer to the scene.  During the first two weeks of August (through the 19th) the police responded to 3 accidents at the Maynard Street parking structure; I have no idea what the details might be in any of them.<br />
I&#8217;m sorry for my delay in getting this information out into the public.  I heard back from Deputy Chief Seto on Monday, August 24th, and should have entered this response immediately.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Whitaker</title>
		<link>http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/08/19/dda-hires-christman-bonds-delivered/comment-page-1/#comment-30016</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Whitaker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 00:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=26427#comment-30016</guid>
		<description>&quot;If the decision involves bonds, the suit has to be filed within 30 days. Since the meeting was February 17 and the suit was filed a few weeks ago, it clearly doesn’t meet the statutory requirement.&quot;

Ahhh yes, but here&#039;s the rub, as I understand it:  The City failed to turn over the emails (the ones that revealed the potential OMA violation) to the GLELC in a FOIA request that WAS made within 30 days.  The emails were later turned over to the Chronicle in a subsequent, and similar FOIA request.  Had the City properly complied with the original FOIA, the OMA violation could have potentially been challenged in the time prescribed by the OMA.

And P.S.: Convention centers are notorious money-losers, which is why they require &quot;public-private&quot; partnerships.  I thought the proposal for &quot;the top&quot; had to provide revenue to the City, not suck more money out of our wallets?  I&#039;d been interested in hearing what Ann Arbor hoteliers and the UM facilities folks have to say about the market for such a facility.  Are the dozens of Ann Arbor/UM facilities so heavily booked that we need to build another one?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If the decision involves bonds, the suit has to be filed within 30 days. Since the meeting was February 17 and the suit was filed a few weeks ago, it clearly doesn’t meet the statutory requirement.&#8221;</p>
<p>Ahhh yes, but here&#8217;s the rub, as I understand it:  The City failed to turn over the emails (the ones that revealed the potential OMA violation) to the GLELC in a FOIA request that WAS made within 30 days.  The emails were later turned over to the Chronicle in a subsequent, and similar FOIA request.  Had the City properly complied with the original FOIA, the OMA violation could have potentially been challenged in the time prescribed by the OMA.</p>
<p>And P.S.: Convention centers are notorious money-losers, which is why they require &#8220;public-private&#8221; partnerships.  I thought the proposal for &#8220;the top&#8221; had to provide revenue to the City, not suck more money out of our wallets?  I&#8217;d been interested in hearing what Ann Arbor hoteliers and the UM facilities folks have to say about the market for such a facility.  Are the dozens of Ann Arbor/UM facilities so heavily booked that we need to build another one?</p>
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		<title>By: Marvin Face</title>
		<link>http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/08/19/dda-hires-christman-bonds-delivered/comment-page-1/#comment-29995</link>
		<dc:creator>Marvin Face</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 17:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=26427#comment-29995</guid>
		<description>John Floyd,

I don&#039;t think you misread.  I hadn&#039;t thought about it until now but I guess maybe my principles are inherently un-democratic.  I think there is some &quot;behind the scenes&quot; work that has to be done very early on to make sure good money is not thrown after bad.  If everything looks like it alligns, then open up the discussion to the public. There are things that need to be vetted in private, they just do.  Anyone who does not think that is not living in a reality-based environment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Floyd,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think you misread.  I hadn&#8217;t thought about it until now but I guess maybe my principles are inherently un-democratic.  I think there is some &#8220;behind the scenes&#8221; work that has to be done very early on to make sure good money is not thrown after bad.  If everything looks like it alligns, then open up the discussion to the public. There are things that need to be vetted in private, they just do.  Anyone who does not think that is not living in a reality-based environment.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Bean</title>
		<link>http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/08/19/dda-hires-christman-bonds-delivered/comment-page-1/#comment-29993</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 16:32:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=26427#comment-29993</guid>
		<description>Joan, why would the entire lawsuit be found without merit if only one of the (multiple) complaints was invalidated?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joan, why would the entire lawsuit be found without merit if only one of the (multiple) complaints was invalidated?</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Cahill</title>
		<link>http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/08/19/dda-hires-christman-bonds-delivered/comment-page-1/#comment-29989</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Cahill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 15:14:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=26427#comment-29989</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure Joan is right about the 60- and 30-day periods.  The Open Meetings Act does specify these limits.  See Michigan Compiled Laws sections 15.270(3)(a) and (b).  However, the suit says that the claimed violations were not discovered until July.  I tiptoed quickly through the various appellate court decisions involving these limitations periods, and I couldn&#039;t find any decision where the court confronted a situation of late discovery of the violations.  The courts may apply a &quot;knew or should have known&quot; test to the violations, in which case the suit won&#039;t be thrown out on the basis of these limitations periods.  With the violations occurring in secret e-mails, who knows what a judge might decide?

Also, I&#039;m not sure the City Attorney and City Council are willing to stand the political heat if they invoke the &quot;too late, sucker&quot; defense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure Joan is right about the 60- and 30-day periods.  The Open Meetings Act does specify these limits.  See Michigan Compiled Laws sections 15.270(3)(a) and (b).  However, the suit says that the claimed violations were not discovered until July.  I tiptoed quickly through the various appellate court decisions involving these limitations periods, and I couldn&#8217;t find any decision where the court confronted a situation of late discovery of the violations.  The courts may apply a &#8220;knew or should have known&#8221; test to the violations, in which case the suit won&#8217;t be thrown out on the basis of these limitations periods.  With the violations occurring in secret e-mails, who knows what a judge might decide?</p>
<p>Also, I&#8217;m not sure the City Attorney and City Council are willing to stand the political heat if they invoke the &#8220;too late, sucker&#8221; defense.</p>
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		<title>By: John Floyd</title>
		<link>http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/08/19/dda-hires-christman-bonds-delivered/comment-page-1/#comment-29980</link>
		<dc:creator>John Floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 05:22:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=26427#comment-29980</guid>
		<description>#17 has hit the nail on the head.  Ms. Lowenstein&#039;s point is  NOT that council acted legally, within the Open Meetings Act, but that council&#039;s violation may not have been caught in time, the public be damned.  This is not a basis for expanding trust in the current political class.

Mr. Face,

Perhaps I mis-read you, but it appears that because you agree with one particular decision of council, you believe that it is OK for council to keep the public uninformed about ideas in the works.  You appear to imply that this is OK because you like this project, but suspect that most people do not want it, and therefor fear that early public discussion would kill the convention center.

Public discussion of public policies, investments, and lands is one part of what makes democracy.  That&#039;s why the public&#039;s business should be in public from the moment of inception.  Council cannot represent the people if the people are not informed about what council is considering in a manner timely enough to affect - or change - outcomes.   Timely information is part of what enables citizens to hold elected officials accountable, which in turn is another part of what makes democracy.  If your principles are essentially un-democratic - well, OK.

If I have mis-read you, I apologize, and welcome your correcting comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#17 has hit the nail on the head.  Ms. Lowenstein&#8217;s point is  NOT that council acted legally, within the Open Meetings Act, but that council&#8217;s violation may not have been caught in time, the public be damned.  This is not a basis for expanding trust in the current political class.</p>
<p>Mr. Face,</p>
<p>Perhaps I mis-read you, but it appears that because you agree with one particular decision of council, you believe that it is OK for council to keep the public uninformed about ideas in the works.  You appear to imply that this is OK because you like this project, but suspect that most people do not want it, and therefor fear that early public discussion would kill the convention center.</p>
<p>Public discussion of public policies, investments, and lands is one part of what makes democracy.  That&#8217;s why the public&#8217;s business should be in public from the moment of inception.  Council cannot represent the people if the people are not informed about what council is considering in a manner timely enough to affect &#8211; or change &#8211; outcomes.   Timely information is part of what enables citizens to hold elected officials accountable, which in turn is another part of what makes democracy.  If your principles are essentially un-democratic &#8211; well, OK.</p>
<p>If I have mis-read you, I apologize, and welcome your correcting comments.</p>
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		<title>By: suswhit</title>
		<link>http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/08/19/dda-hires-christman-bonds-delivered/comment-page-1/#comment-29977</link>
		<dc:creator>suswhit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 03:25:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=26427#comment-29977</guid>
		<description>Re 16. Nice. A former councilperson steps forward to point out that, hmmmm. let&#039;s see. If council violates the open meetings act it&#039;s ok just so long as no one notices for 30 days. As long as the violation is kept quiet long enough, hey, it doesn&#039;t matter. Excellent defense. 
Pee-ew. What&#039;s that smell?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re 16. Nice. A former councilperson steps forward to point out that, hmmmm. let&#8217;s see. If council violates the open meetings act it&#8217;s ok just so long as no one notices for 30 days. As long as the violation is kept quiet long enough, hey, it doesn&#8217;t matter. Excellent defense.<br />
Pee-ew. What&#8217;s that smell?</p>
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		<title>By: Joan Lowenstein</title>
		<link>http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/08/19/dda-hires-christman-bonds-delivered/comment-page-1/#comment-29957</link>
		<dc:creator>Joan Lowenstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 16:22:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=26427#comment-29957</guid>
		<description>A note about the bond advisors stating that the GLEC lawsuit is without merit -- that&#039;s true. The suit claims that the decision by the council to issue the bonds should be invalid because it was made in violation of the Open Meetings Act. But the OMA states that any suit brought to invalidate a decision must be brought within 60 days of when the minutes are available. If the decision involves bonds, the suit has to be filed within 30 days. Since the meeting was February 17 and the suit was filed a few weeks ago, it clearly doesn&#039;t meet the statutory requirement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A note about the bond advisors stating that the GLEC lawsuit is without merit &#8212; that&#8217;s true. The suit claims that the decision by the council to issue the bonds should be invalid because it was made in violation of the Open Meetings Act. But the OMA states that any suit brought to invalidate a decision must be brought within 60 days of when the minutes are available. If the decision involves bonds, the suit has to be filed within 30 days. Since the meeting was February 17 and the suit was filed a few weeks ago, it clearly doesn&#8217;t meet the statutory requirement.</p>
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