Comments on: Column: In the Ring http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/08/13/column-in-the-ring/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=column-in-the-ring it's like being there Tue, 16 Sep 2014 04:56:38 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.2 By: Rod Johnson http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/08/13/column-in-the-ring/comment-page-1/#comment-51619 Rod Johnson Sat, 28 Aug 2010 04:18:57 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=48509#comment-51619 Alexander–I am impressed and somewhat boggled.

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By: Alexander Fiske-Harrison http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/08/13/column-in-the-ring/comment-page-1/#comment-51616 Alexander Fiske-Harrison Sat, 28 Aug 2010 00:52:10 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=48509#comment-51616 Rod: I am learning how, rather painfully, in order to write the best book on the subject (‘Into The Arena – The World of the Spanish Bullfight’, Profile Books, February 2011). I realised I would have to dispense with the appearance of neutrality (if not the reality of impartiality) in exchange for completeness.

John: if you like Kant and Nietzsche, then you’ll love the two following quotations on the bullfight.

“In a bullfight the bull is the hero of a tragedy. First driven mad by suffering, he dies a slow and terrible death.”
Ludwig Wittgenstein

“”Such the ungentle sport that oft invites
The Spanish maid, and cheers the Spanish swain,
Nurtured in blood betimes, his heart delights
In vengeance, gloating on another’s pain.”
Lord Byron

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By: John U. Bacon http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/08/13/column-in-the-ring/comment-page-1/#comment-50952 John U. Bacon Tue, 17 Aug 2010 00:12:33 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=48509#comment-50952 Dear Readers,

Always interesting to read intelligent comments. And you have to love any batch of letters on a story about bullfighting that includes a mention of Nietzsche and Kant.

I am writing, however, to answer one of the questions above: the meat is donated to orphanages.

And, a minor distinction, perhaps: for the true aficionados, the entertainment is not in seeing an animal die, but in watching a skilled bullfighter practice his craft, most impressively in concert with a strong, powerful bull. It’s the difference between going to a Formula One race to see any old driver get into an accident, or to see Michael Schumacher work his way around the field. Both are bound to happen, of course, but the question is your motive in attending. You might call that a distinction without a difference, and you might be right, but I felt compelled to raise it.

Again, thanks for reading, and thanks for writing.

-John
johnubacon.com

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By: Rod Johnson http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/08/13/column-in-the-ring/comment-page-1/#comment-50936 Rod Johnson Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:14:51 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=48509#comment-50936 Alexander: you fight bulls?!

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By: Alexander Fiske-Harrison http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/08/13/column-in-the-ring/comment-page-1/#comment-50929 Alexander Fiske-Harrison Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:57:21 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=48509#comment-50929 To Katie: thank you. It is amazing to me how many people refuse to acknowledge that point. By the way, I am not saying two wrongs: eating meat, fighting bulls – both of which I do, as participant AND spectator – make a right. I am saying they are what we do, and we would all know it if only we could see beyond the ends of our own noses and the cellophaned-wrapped meat aisle in the supermarket.

Of course, you have the moral high ground here, although there is a less obvious, more subtle argument that vegetarianism, at least on grounds of ethics rather than taste, is a denial of life, but then I would have to wheel out Nietzsche and Kant, and this is not the place for such dry academic artillery…

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By: Katie Whitney http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/08/13/column-in-the-ring/comment-page-1/#comment-50914 Katie Whitney Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:27:41 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=48509#comment-50914 I heard somewhere–maybe it was even in Hemingway–that the bulls (at least at one point) were given to the poor, making the bullfight a great feast time with a slightly philanthropic bent. That said, I’m a vegetarian, and the one bullfight I attended (pre-vegetarianism) was beautiful and appalling. It’s hard to say which is less honorable: killing an animal in for entertainment or killing it in a slaughterhouse where there’s no public witness.

To Alexander: good point about eating as entertainment.

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By: Alexander Fiske-Harrison http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/08/13/column-in-the-ring/comment-page-1/#comment-50715 Alexander Fiske-Harrison Fri, 13 Aug 2010 23:50:30 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=48509#comment-50715 A nicely balanced piece. I would add some more details which need to be weighed about the environmental damage done if bullfighting were banned and the psychological damage done by watching it. But I develop them in the first post on my own blog, The Last Arena – In Search of the Spanish Bullfight. I would say this, though. People seem to ignore that most eating, especially of meat, especially in the US, IS entertainment. If you are clinically obese, eating a burger has a negative nutritional value. And this is where most of the 78.2% of the 34.4 million cattle factory farmed and slaughtered cattle in 2008 ended up. In the civilised world, most of what we eat is because it tastes good, which is an aesthetic pleasure, albeit a cruder one than the appreciation of art. Including bullfighting.

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By: James C. Crawford http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/08/13/column-in-the-ring/comment-page-1/#comment-50709 James C. Crawford Fri, 13 Aug 2010 21:14:04 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=48509#comment-50709 John, I have been to slaughterhouses and there is no similarity whatsoever, not even close, to bullfighting. The cows are led through chutes to a stall, where their eyes are rolling from fear because they smell the blood of their predecessor who died only moments before. A man in a rubber apron, with rubber gloves takes an pneumatic piston, puts it between the eyes of the cow and dispatches it in a very casual, manner.

Next! Keep the line rolling, we got a lot of beef to grind today.

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By: John U. Bacon http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/08/13/column-in-the-ring/comment-page-1/#comment-50693 John U. Bacon Fri, 13 Aug 2010 18:08:43 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=48509#comment-50693 Dear ABC and Ms. Lowenstein,

You both raise good points.

I trust it’s clear I have more than a few reservations about it. There are times it’s just impossible to watch.

But having seen it done well, and also researched our slaughterhouses a little, I’m not as quick to judge as I might be. If there’s one target I rarely can resist striking, it’s hypocrisy, and we’re guilty of some here — though ABC’s additions are on the mark, in my view. There were times I found myself impressed by the bullfighter’s work, despite myself. I can understand why many Spaniards go to see a bullfighter like Ordonez in his prime.

In some ways it mimics my utterly mixed feelings about boxing — wonderful to see done well, and horrible to see done poorly, and worse to see the long term effects on the boxers. Even football can come with a terrible price, one that’s hard to reconcile with our glorification of the athletes and the games.

Obviously, I would never object to Catalonia banning bullfighting – nor any other place — and we need to see the NFL and the NCAA do more to protect the players on the field, not just during their careers, but years after.

Thanks for reading, and thanks for writing.

-John

p.s. I did not know that Birkenstocks now come in Vegan styles, but I should have guessed it! Thanks for the information.

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By: Joan Lowenstein http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/08/13/column-in-the-ring/comment-page-1/#comment-50689 Joan Lowenstein Fri, 13 Aug 2010 17:41:11 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=48509#comment-50689 Unlike bulls, humans do seem to evolve. We’re now banning bullfights and dogfights, voting to stop shooting birds, regulating whether chickens can be kept in cages, and — most amazingly — I just read that there may even be some extra padding required for NFL players.

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