Comments on: County Board Debates $345M Bond Proposal http://annarborchronicle.com/2013/05/07/county-board-debates-345m-bond-proposal/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=county-board-debates-345m-bond-proposal it's like being there Tue, 16 Sep 2014 04:56:38 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.2 By: Steve Bean http://annarborchronicle.com/2013/05/07/county-board-debates-345m-bond-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-250209 Steve Bean Thu, 23 May 2013 20:19:43 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=111772#comment-250209 Interestingly, the EWP and the “screaming heads” ARE about equally useful, as the EWP is an observation of the social mood that the screamers represent. Equally useful, but oppositely indicative—when the screamers finally think it’s a roaring bull market (like now), that’s when the bear market begins. Watch for the optimistic headlines over the next month or so that express that optimism (with “!!”, yet), even as the market doesn’t reach new highs. (Of course, there’s also that underlying reality of the still-weak economy and that there’s something ‘not quite right’ about the ongoing market rally up to this point. That’s typical of a B wave, per Prechter.)

I certainly wouldn’t want to try to use the EWP to make a living. It’s not that easy, and the rules and guidelines, while not “loosely defined”, imo, (and much more extensive than what Wikipedia lists) don’t turn probabilities into certainties. Yet, at the longer-term scale, I think it makes sense to consider what it has to offer along with other context, especially at a juncture like this where being prepared for the worst (when “the worst” really would apply) can make a big difference for individuals, families, small businesses, and communities.

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By: John Q. http://annarborchronicle.com/2013/05/07/county-board-debates-345m-bond-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-250166 John Q. Thu, 23 May 2013 16:31:32 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=111772#comment-250166 I think this criticism [link] of the Elliot Wave Principle concepts pretty much sums up my take on all this. I’m not discounting the principle that there is an emotional aspect to market behavior. But I find the efforts to predict the “waves” to be about as useful as the take on the markets from the screaming heads on the various financial news outlets.

The Elliott Wave Principle, as popularly practiced, is not a legitimate theory, but a story, and a compelling one that is eloquently told by Robert Prechter. The account is especially persuasive because EWP has the seemingly remarkable ability to fit any segment of market history down to its most minute fluctuations. I contend this is made possible by the method’s loosely defined rules and the ability to postulate a large number of nested waves of varying magnitude. This gives the Elliott analyst the same freedom and flexibility that allowed pre-Copernican astronomers to explain all observed planet movements even though their underlying theory of an Earth-centered universe was wrong.

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By: Steve Bean http://annarborchronicle.com/2013/05/07/county-board-debates-345m-bond-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-250147 Steve Bean Thu, 23 May 2013 14:54:20 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=111772#comment-250147 The point in watching the market closely is to determine whether the long-term prediction is playing out. And it is. Not paying close attention—and deciding on an escape route—is like ignoring the tsunami warning sirens.

After all, there’s no point in not ‘predicting’ a cataclysmic event until after it’s happened. Having an idea of what’s ahead can help us see it when it’s happening, so we don’t mistake it for a lesser event while in the midst of it.

Preferably, we will take the warnings seriously and adequately prepare in advance. Some of us have done that. Those who haven’t still have some time: on the order of months to a year before the (just-beginning?) downward wave 1 finishes and the corrective wave 2 rebounds part way up to yesterday’s high (assuming that holds up) and is then followed by the swift downward wave 3 (all at Cycle level, one degree below Supercycle) over the course of the subsequent year or so. Negative impacts on the broader economy will likely lag by several months to a year or so. And by “negative”, I mean Great Depression scale.

My purpose in regularly sharing my thoughts on this subject has been to familiarize people—including our local government representatives—with what’s happening. Many of us don’t pay attention to what’s happening with our financial investments (retirement funds in particular) and get complacent when the headlines say it’s all good and/or getting better, which is the peak optimism that accompanies a market top.

As I said to the mayor when I met with him a few months ago, there’s no good time to talk to people about this. So I just started as soon as I realized that too soon was better than too late. That was back in December. What I thought might be an eleventh-hour alarm turned into a 6-month-long heads up. So be it.

This is part of the big-picture context within which the county board will be making its decisions about issuing additional debt.

Update: The high (S&P 500) on last Wednesday appears to be the top of the third sub-wave, followed by the sideways fourth and the upward fifth that peaked yesterday morning. That would complete the double-zigzag Supercycle B wave that began in March 2009.

If instead yesterday’s top is the end of the third sub-wave (wave counts aren’t always clear until some time passes), a fourth (the drop that started yesterday) and fifth would follow over the next month and a half or so. (Other timing indicators point to May—that is, yesterday—being a more likely period for the top, which also fits with the currently high sentiment indicators of a significant top.)

Whether it has already begun or doesn’t for several weeks, the downward Supercycle-degree C wave will be of one higher degree than the C wave that included the crash of 2008. (The B wave that’s wrapping up was one degree higher than the B wave that spanned from the bottom in 2002 to the top in 2007. The crash of 1987 was also part of a C wave that was several degrees lower than this one that’s getting underway. See comment #3.)

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By: Vivienne Armentrout http://annarborchronicle.com/2013/05/07/county-board-debates-345m-bond-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-249404 Vivienne Armentrout Thu, 16 May 2013 20:08:26 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=111772#comment-249404 Steve, I knew that it wasn’t “your” model, just “the one you espouse”. And I surmised that it is observational. I wanted to point out that the Fed’s actions could alter timelines. An article in the NYT today discussed the current stock bubble. It seems likely that it will peak before long, but predicting on a day-to-day basis seems dicey.

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By: Steve Bean http://annarborchronicle.com/2013/05/07/county-board-debates-345m-bond-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-249395 Steve Bean Thu, 16 May 2013 17:34:14 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=111772#comment-249395 Good question, Vivienne.

The wave principle (as it’s called—and it’s not mine) wasn’t constructed but rather observed. It describes the historical movements of stock market indexes as well as many individual stock, bond, and commodity prices over time, which play out according to rules and guidelines that make them predictable to a certain degree.

The Fed can do what it does, but it can’t control social mood and the decisions of millions of people. In the context of QE, the waves no doubt play out differently than they would otherwise, but they’re still a reflection of social mood—the most immediate one, in fact, since people can buy and sell in a matter of a very short time.

One might say that like every other influencing factor, the Fed’s actions are ‘baked in’. In this case the waves might extend longer but there won’t be a sixth wave, for example—five is still the limit (with special exceptions for extensions and combinations). So one might also say that the Fed has simply postponed the inevitable. Robert Prechter, Jr. addresses this subject more extensively in his book, Conquer the Crash.

And now that the second sub-wave continued up even higher this morning I’m even more humbled (or is it humiliated?) :-) Trying to predict the next movement at that scale is just fun (unless, of course, your livelihood depends on it). At the Supercycle scale, though, the big movements affect all our lives significantly.

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By: Vivienne Armentrout http://annarborchronicle.com/2013/05/07/county-board-debates-345m-bond-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-249388 Vivienne Armentrout Thu, 16 May 2013 16:11:39 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=111772#comment-249388 Steve, I wonder whether your wave model was constructed to accommodate the extraordinary effort by the Fed to pump up the stock market. They have an overt and unapologetic mission to keep those numbers high and are printing money to make it work. (Also, making interest rates so low that savers are pushed into stocks.) Unless the Elliott wave model has some means of adding in such an activity, I doubt that it can be very predictive under the current circumstances.

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By: Steve Bean http://annarborchronicle.com/2013/05/07/county-board-debates-345m-bond-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-249381 Steve Bean Thu, 16 May 2013 15:11:02 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=111772#comment-249381 Will 1661.39 in the S&P 500 (15,300.68 in the Dow) at 12:49 yesterday prove to be the market top?

After several ‘false tops’, humility is in order. It’s a valid count, though. If it’s not the top of the fifth wave, it’s likely the top of the third, with the fifth to come in due time. If it breaks below 1623.40 (the bottom of the previous fourth wave of one lower degree) by the middle of next week, that would indicate that it was the fifth wave and that the uptrend that began in 2009 had ended.

Today, the third sub-wave downward is beginning in the S&P. It will likely fall rapidly over the next several hours after completing the upward corrective second sub-wave around 1658. It’s going sideway below that line currently.

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By: Steve Bean http://annarborchronicle.com/2013/05/07/county-board-debates-345m-bond-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-249250 Steve Bean Wed, 15 May 2013 12:46:16 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=111772#comment-249250 Conan, as Vivienne pointed out, the interest on the bonds would be the increase in the debt.

The way the current situation could be less costly than the bonding scenario (but still very challenging) is if the market downturn is not just a downturn in stocks but also a broad, deep deflationary event, which is what we are ”due’ for.

In that scenario, property values would drop as well, unemployment would increase, and wages would fall. Foreclosures would multiply again. The tax base would be greatly reduced, stressing the county’s ability to pay off existing debt. (Debt would be the main challenge since costs in real time would also be dropping due to deflation.)

The kicker would be that most investments would not just “underperform”, they would lose most of their value (principal). Bonding would put the county in a position of needing to make a positive return on the held funds. That would be extremely challenging in a deflationary collapse. Corporations would be going bankrupt, which would devalue not only their stocks but their bonds as well. Municipalities would be defaulting on bonds in large numbers. Only the most secure bonds might retain their full value, and the bond-rating agencies have demonstrated that they are not truly good judges of which are most secure.

So even the held funds could be at risk of being lost due to this timing. By that I mean that the deflation that history has shown will likely occur over the next several years would coincide with the county receiving a lump sum. Much of that could be lost in the first wave (of five) down, which would occur over the next year or so. Much of what’s left could be lost in the longer third wave (the “crash”) a few years from now. In order to get a decent return you have to maintain your principal, and neither would be easy.

The best approach for the county (and the city, as well as individuals) would be to protect its financial assets in the form of cash (which goes up in value during deflation—”cash is king”—the dollar has already begun its rise) and pay off existing debt.

While investing in dollars would be safe, it wouldn’t help with bond interest payments because those are also dollars (i.e., the return on cash is 0%)—the burden on taxpayers would still be greater with the additional bond interest payment debt, and the risk of default would be high.

If the county has the discipline to hold cash and limit other investments to US Treasury notes (short term, since interest rates will continue to rise, though it could be a while before they top 4%—that’s also assuming that the federal government doesn’t ultimately default, but at that point we might be ready to throw in the towel on this whole money idea anyway), bonding could possibly work out.

But then there’s that future risk you referred to. Would a board two years or so from now at the top of the second (corrective, upward) wave in the stock market think that a recovery was underway and that they needed to get higher returns? Most likely. Then the crash (wave three) would come and wipe out most of that riskily invested principal. (Maybe I take back what I said earlier about minimizing future risk.)

Getting to your question of whether the more-insulated general fund scenario makes sense, the reason I think it doesn’t is because of the above and, specifically, because you overlook the potential for negative returns (i.e., loss of principal). That’s where I was referring to an unrealistic alternative—you can’t have a glass that’s half full if you don’t have a glass.

The current situation is clearly challenging. Pretending that it’s not would most likely make matters worse. You’re not doing that. The challenge for you is to not pretend that matters (beyond our control) couldn’t get drastically worse. The probability that they will is high. That means more risk.

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By: Vivienne Armentrout http://annarborchronicle.com/2013/05/07/county-board-debates-345m-bond-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-249242 Vivienne Armentrout Wed, 15 May 2013 10:42:11 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=111772#comment-249242 I think the key point in (11) is this: “My read is essentially that we are converting a portion of the unfunded retiree liability to a budgeted bond liability.” What Conan Smith and some other commissioners appear to be hoping to do – with both the 4-year budget and this bonding plan – is to secure a firm, predictable financial outline in which these costs can then be set aside – leaving other county monies available for new projects and initiatives. That is one of the things that concerns me – that this is only the first step in expending even more county funds, once this problem can be said to be “solved”.

Smith is arguing that the only uncertainties are vagaries of the stock market, which apply both to this scheme and to the existing trust funds. But the proposal will actually cost more upfront, and does not have a guarantee – except that the county is guaranteed to have to pay the interest! Meanwhile, the VEBA and WCERS future contributions are also only actuarial estimates. They might actually decrease. By continuing to pay the excess needed out of general funds, the county maintains a flexibility of response.

I’ll look forward to the further exposition of the plan, with information provided by Monday’s press conference. I understand that the Chronicle was present.

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By: Conan Smith http://annarborchronicle.com/2013/05/07/county-board-debates-345m-bond-proposal/comment-page-1/#comment-249203 Conan Smith Wed, 15 May 2013 02:25:55 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=111772#comment-249203 Steve, I’m not understanding how the bonding scenario results in a higher debt load for the County (but believe me I could have missed something, there being a load of details). My read is essentially that we are converting a portion of the unfunded retiree liability to a budgeted bond liability. Help me understand what you’re saying about both the doubling down and the increase in the debt. Yousef and I talked just yesterday about one of the major risks being the occurrence of a market downturn at a maximally in opportune moment, but I am still struggling to understand a scenario where the current situation is more secure or less costly than the bonding option. At any point it seems that a market downturn would impact the sole relance on the WCERS/VEBA trusts more dramatically than if we have the bond intermediary fund since without the bond cushion both the funds and the County general fund are likely to suffer, meaning the continued draw of retiree benefits cracks both the corpus of the retiree trust and the general fund where in the bonding scenario the general fund is more insulated. Does that make sense?

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