Comments on: How the E. Stadium Bridge Gets Monitored http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/03/26/how-the-e-stadium-bridge-gets-monitored/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=how-the-e-stadium-bridge-gets-monitored it's like being there Tue, 16 Sep 2014 04:56:38 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.2 By: Glenn Gottfried http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/03/26/how-the-e-stadium-bridge-gets-monitored/comment-page-1/#comment-16191 Glenn Gottfried Sun, 05 Apr 2009 23:33:57 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=16979#comment-16191 Societal costs is an interesting element of traffic analysis (at least to this observer). Are good data, or at least some statistical models, available to help evaluate the costs of failed pavement? What about lane elimination, either on a “typical” commuting hour, or during event-related traffic peaks? What additional cost arises from the closure of Stadium during construction (for bridge elimination or reconstruction)? What is either the short- or long-term impact of the construction on traffic diversion to, say Hill or even Eisenhower (each of which are in less-than-perfect condition now)? Do additional miles or minutes in the trip diversion not result in additional accidents as well, to say nothing of additional fuel and so on?

One other thing, which is related (or not): Has the project for the reconstruction of Stadium between Pauline and the State/RR bridges been delayed, put on hold, or cancelled altogether?

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By: Christopher Taylor http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/03/26/how-the-e-stadium-bridge-gets-monitored/comment-page-1/#comment-15734 Christopher Taylor Fri, 03 Apr 2009 00:54:33 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=16979#comment-15734 By way of follow up, the City lost 10 of 15 counters in a fire at an airport storage building last July. We currently use the remaining counters and borrowed counters from WCRC and the county “pool” counters to take care of Federal counts and traffic calming counts.

Staff has confirmed that our required work has not been jeopardized although it is true that the City is now less able to meet special requests or discretionary counts.

We are in the process of replacing the lost counters to give the City more flexibility in this regard.

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By: Tom Whitaker http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/03/26/how-the-e-stadium-bridge-gets-monitored/comment-page-1/#comment-14917 Tom Whitaker Sat, 28 Mar 2009 02:11:58 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=16979#comment-14917 And I hear there may be weapons of mass destruction at this intersection, too!

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By: W. Raffensperger, P.E., PTOE http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/03/26/how-the-e-stadium-bridge-gets-monitored/comment-page-1/#comment-14894 W. Raffensperger, P.E., PTOE Fri, 27 Mar 2009 18:41:51 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=16979#comment-14894 For the sake of full disclosure, I know nothing about this project except what is in this article, comments and linked pdf letter.

I would like to make some remarks about the planning and design process for road and bridge projects. I need to know 5 pieces of information before I start a design: 1. The design year (Typically 20 years in the future), 2. The existing traffic volumes (car counts), 3. The projected traffic volumes for the design year, 4. The design speed for the project, and 5. The design vehicle.

The road is designed for the projected volume of traffic in the design year during the highest peak hour of travel. Loosely speaking, the peak hour is the daily rush hour, either morning or evening.

As a traffic engineer, a grade separation is always preferable to an at grade intersection. Yes, bridges are expensive to build and maintain. The reduced impacts to traffic delays, response times for emergency services and crash reduction is far superior to an at-grade crossing. Which would you rather have a faster EMS response time with the bridge or risk a person dying because the ambulance was stopped by the train. The Illinois toll way says every minute that a lane is closed results in 4-5 minutes of congestion.

In response to Mr. Whitaker’s comments about the statistical modeling, the $250,000 figure is an assumed cost to society because of a crash. When we are in a crash, we see the price to fix our vehicle. What we do not see is the price to society. Whenever there is a crash, there are “hidden” costs associated with the crash response that may not paid by the drivers, such as police, fire, ambulance, morgue. These are the obvious costs paid by the taxpayer. Less obvious are all of the costs associated with anybody who ever touches the crash report.

The crash modelling is a little bit out dated only because AASHTO will be publishing the Highway Safety Manual. It is my understanding that it will be published later this year. This manual will give a traffic engineer rigerously tested, research based models to predict the number of crashes that will occur at an intersection. The manual will also provide proven methods to analyze an intersection and suggest methods to reduce the number of crashes.

The Center for Disease Control says that highway fatalities are a national epidemic. Every year, approximately 44,000 people die on the roads of the US. More people die on the highways than people dying of a heart attack. If 44,000 people died of a contagious disease, there would be national outcry for the government to do something.

If I wewre living in Ann Arbor, I would be pressing my legislator to get the bridge rebuilt as soon as possible.

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By: Tom Whitaker http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/03/26/how-the-e-stadium-bridge-gets-monitored/comment-page-1/#comment-14828 Tom Whitaker Fri, 27 Mar 2009 04:16:28 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=16979#comment-14828 The memo is typical traffic engineer cost-benefit analysis that makes outdated assumptions using statistical models instead of practical measurements, real-life observations of the location, and common sense. Just because you put Stadium at grade does not mean you have to widen everything out to 6 lanes in every direction. I’m sure a creative transportation designer/engineer can come up with something better than that–potentially continuing to use Stimson as a way of relieving some of the load.

Why not use real statistics for AARR/automobile incidents from the eleven at-grade crossings we already have in Ann Arbor instead of these statistical models (New Hampshire Index and Peabody-Dimmick)? I’m sure there must be an incident on the AARR line in Ann Arbor from time-to-time, but I’m having trouble recalling any.

The memo also uses a $19 million figure for replacement of the bridges and $22.3 million for the “societal costs.” The 2008-2013 capital improvements plan estimates the total cost of replacing the bridge over State at $9.2 million and the total cost of replacing the bridge over the AARR at $12.85 million, for a total of $22.05 million. (Credit to Karen Sidney for that info.) So, even if you accept remote cost-benefit analysis and traffic models, it is at worse, a break-even proposition. I’m sure the construction figures will only continue to go up. (And what about the fuel costs to detour around this area during construction of bridges…Broadway took two years, didn’t it?)

Ironically, I just met with an Ann Arbor traffic engineer the other day to observe traffic on a street near downtown. After remarking at the unexpected volume of traffic we were seeing, I asked if we couldn’t put one of those car-counter boxes in for a few days to get an accurate count. He said they had all burned up in a fire and the City hadn’t replaced them.

I guess we don’t need real data when one can sit in a cubicle and pull up online statistical models. Right?

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By: Ron http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/03/26/how-the-e-stadium-bridge-gets-monitored/comment-page-1/#comment-14798 Ron Thu, 26 Mar 2009 20:33:42 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=16979#comment-14798 I live near to the tracks, and get more abuse during the winter when the University uses dump trucks (and a tractor I call “Der Wolvenpanzer”) all night long to dump and move their snow. The tractor rumbles my floorboards, and the backup sounds of the trucks at 2, 3, and 4 AM make me pine for the mere grumblings of trains.

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By: John Kidle http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/03/26/how-the-e-stadium-bridge-gets-monitored/comment-page-1/#comment-14797 John Kidle Thu, 26 Mar 2009 20:32:39 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=16979#comment-14797 I asked the question, in part, because my inquiry to Homayoon Pirooz regarding removal of the bridges went unanswered. I too might have ignored such a question on a topic I thought to be settled–people not involved in the process can be so annoying. However, while the no-bridge analysis goes into great detail cataloging the many societal costs of removing the bridges it completely ignores the same costs that result from the current condition. The contorted efforts of motorists taking White to Stimson to State, or using the Stimson/S. Industrial route must carry many of the same costs. Perhaps the costs, and difficulties of acquiring right of way are too great to overcome. I am glad, at least, to see that an analysis was done.

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By: Tom Brandt http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/03/26/how-the-e-stadium-bridge-gets-monitored/comment-page-1/#comment-14794 Tom Brandt Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:29:53 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=16979#comment-14794 From the memo: “Based on our previous conversations, we would not expect that your organization would be very receptive to our requests for additional land.”

Mr. Nearing is a master of understatement.

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By: Steve Bean http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/03/26/how-the-e-stadium-bridge-gets-monitored/comment-page-1/#comment-14793 Steve Bean Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:25:15 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=16979#comment-14793 I think that Vivienne posed a pertinent question about the current costs of fuel and delays (including the resulting pollution) from traffic not being able to directly access State from Stadium and vice versa. It doesn’t seem that a potential decrease in those costs were taken into consideration in the analysis presented in the memo.

It also seems that they gave no consideration to the potential for a decrease in traffic in the future. One possible opportunity that could arise from such a scenario is that Stadium could be reduced to three lanes, rather than needing to be expanded to five to accommodate the at-grade intersection. That would likely lower the costs of the bridges (or the intersection and crossing), but it’s not clear how everything would balance out.

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By: My two cents http://annarborchronicle.com/2009/03/26/how-the-e-stadium-bridge-gets-monitored/comment-page-1/#comment-14785 My two cents Thu, 26 Mar 2009 18:30:35 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=16979#comment-14785 The memo sums up all the long term thinking nicely.

In Plymouth on Sheldon road and M14, the at-grade RR crossing is being coverted to a bridge over the tracks because of all the backups and headaches that this crossing has had. If you have ever been stuck at this crossing when a train is passing, you literally can be stuck for 10-15 minutes.

Plymouth is upgrading to our present system; our system just needs a repair or replacement, but is probably the best solution according to the research in the memo.

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