Comments on: In the Archives: “United States” Spoken Here http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/11/18/in-the-archives-united-states-spoken-here/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=in-the-archives-united-states-spoken-here it's like being there Tue, 16 Sep 2014 04:56:38 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.2 By: Eric Wucherer http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/11/18/in-the-archives-united-states-spoken-here/comment-page-1/#comment-58876 Eric Wucherer Tue, 23 Nov 2010 21:16:46 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=53732#comment-58876 I’m not too familiar with detailed differences between German dialects, but for what it’s worth the “High German” pronunciation of “Koch” matches the first link Laura posted in #14.

Also, I was taught in high school that Liberty Street used to be called “Freiheitstrasse” (meaning “Liberty Street”) prior to WWII (I think, maybe WWI), though I never looked it up myself…

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By: Rod Johnson http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/11/18/in-the-archives-united-states-spoken-here/comment-page-1/#comment-58731 Rod Johnson Sat, 20 Nov 2010 18:39:18 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=53732#comment-58731 Oops, Jim, you snuck in there between me and Dave, who my #17 was responding to.

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By: Rod Johnson http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/11/18/in-the-archives-united-states-spoken-here/comment-page-1/#comment-58730 Rod Johnson Sat, 20 Nov 2010 18:38:10 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=53732#comment-58730 My point, which you’ve amply illustrated, was that pronouncing something “how it’s spelled” is not as straightforward as it seems, since the same spelling can represent lot of different things depending on who’s looking at it.

I believe you’re right, by the way, that the allophonic variation after front and back vowels (ichlaut, [ç] vs. achlaut, [x]) has been neutralized to [x] in several Southern dialects, including Alemannisch. German dialectology, particularly along the Rhine, is crazy complicated, but I don’t believe there’s any variety in which the final [x] ever disappears, though. So the Swabian hypothesis doesn’t really stand up–Swabian has weird vowels and some non-standard vocabulary, but it does have that final [x].

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By: Jim Rees http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/11/18/in-the-archives-united-states-spoken-here/comment-page-1/#comment-58729 Jim Rees Sat, 20 Nov 2010 18:32:48 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=53732#comment-58729 Koch rhymed with “botch.” Unfortunately I don’t remember how the Germans pronounced it, just how we pronounced it as kids. I do remember the Germans on the Old West Side speaking with a softer “ch,” closer to “chin” than the “hockering” you describe.

I’m curious to know why we called Wurster the “Indian Trails,” and whether that name had been in use in previous generations or if it’s just something we made up.

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By: Dave Askins http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/11/18/in-the-archives-united-states-spoken-here/comment-page-1/#comment-58675 Dave Askins Fri, 19 Nov 2010 23:30:18 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=53732#comment-58675 Re: [13] … what it would mean to pronounce “Koch” like it’s spelled.

I take Jim Rees’s description just to mean that at least some final consonant got pronounced, whether [k] or [ch]. In German, the latter is not the same as the beginning of English “chin” but rather resembles what you’d get by very mildly hockering [as in "hockering up a loogie"]. It’s known as an ach-Laut [ach-sound] for Germanic linguists. It’s similar to the ich-Laut — ich-Laut is palatal compared to the velar ach-Laut.

Regarding the absence of expected final [ch] in the local pronunciation of “Bach,” my recollection from my now ancient schooling in the history of German language is that one hallmark of Allemanisch, which includes Schwabisch, is the lack of the usual allophonic alternation between ich-Laut and ach-Laut, which is a pattern typical of standard German. In standard German you always get ich-Laut after front vowels and ach-Laut after back vowels — it’s a parade example of assimilation that can be analyzed by some sort of phonological rule instead of needing to assume that speakers really have two separate sounds in their inventory of possible noises with which to communicate.

But in Allemanisch it’s ach-Laut everywhere, even after front vowels. So even for Schwabisch, I’d expect the ach-Laut still to be there. But the disappearance of that sound from the end — either historically within Allemanisch, or as heard by English-speaking Ann Arborites — is reasonable to expect: The ach-Laut is different from the preceding vowel only in the amount of friction used to make the sound. So there’s a plausible story to tell about why some speakers were going around saying [bach] and other people were hearing just [ba].

It’s very likely the same phonological process that, if he’d lived even longer, would have given us Bo Sembeler from Boch Schembechler.

Yes, well, that was a very long walk around the blo.

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By: Laura Bien http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/11/18/in-the-archives-united-states-spoken-here/comment-page-1/#comment-58671 Laura Bien Fri, 19 Nov 2010 22:38:52 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=53732#comment-58671 Hmm, this German pronunciation site says it ends with that soft “g” sound: [link]

but this one says it’s “koak”: [link]

Which is not too helpful, sorry.

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By: Rod Johnson http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/11/18/in-the-archives-united-states-spoken-here/comment-page-1/#comment-58665 Rod Johnson Fri, 19 Nov 2010 21:03:12 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=53732#comment-58665 What does “the way it’s spelled” mean with Koch? Rhymes with “botch”? With “broke”?

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By: Laura Bien http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/11/18/in-the-archives-united-states-spoken-here/comment-page-1/#comment-58652 Laura Bien Fri, 19 Nov 2010 16:12:04 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=53732#comment-58652 Seemingly random fact: I was reading an old grocer’s ad in an old newspaper the other day that highlighted Thanksgiving items. One of them was “Queen Olives in Bulk,” and I wondered who in the world would need bulk quantities of giant olives, of all things.

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By: cmadler http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/11/18/in-the-archives-united-states-spoken-here/comment-page-1/#comment-58649 cmadler Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:39:26 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=53732#comment-58649 Yeah, that looks like a device for pitting fruit, and from the size, cherries make the most sense.

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By: Laura Bien http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/11/18/in-the-archives-united-states-spoken-here/comment-page-1/#comment-58648 Laura Bien Fri, 19 Nov 2010 14:45:23 +0000 http://annarborchronicle.com/?p=53732#comment-58648 Jim: Hmm, interesting information. Hadn’t known about “Indian Trails” I must say–good to know; thank you!

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